Curse

Jeydra · Apr 13, 2011, 04:50 AM // 04:50

I changed my mind on mercenary heroes a while back - they provide an in-game advantage, however small, for money. While it's true that purchasing EotN also provides an in-game advantage for money, EotN also came with extra content. Mercenaries are similar to purchases that increases your damage output by 5%. An in-game advantage, however small, for money. It'd still be possible to complete the game without this advantage, but who'd agree with this ... ?

/signed.

Improvavel · Apr 13, 2011, 05:23 AM // 05:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Then 6+ elementalists would be the problem.

If we follow this line of logic to it's end, there was nothing wrong with Shadow Form. Or Ursan. If we assume that there is not some objective standard of fairness, then the entire concept of balance goes out the window, at which point the only logical course of action is to start wishing for a skill that instantly kills all enemies and teleports their drops to us (after all, you don't have to use it if you don't want to, right?).

Spending real money for in-game advantages is anathema to the game's design philosophy. It is the definition of unfair. Machine guns make more sense in the context of the game than that.

The real irony, of course, is that the entire purpose of rules in the context of a game is to create a structure within which fun can be had. A game with no rules is not fun, because anything that can be done within it is without purpose. Otherwise, games wouldn't have rules in the first place.

There we go again.

Merc heroes don't bend any rules of the game.

None.

The game is based on a party with 8 elements that have a primary and a secondary profession and can choose 8 skills, 1 of them elite and 3 of them can be PvE-only skills.

Do mercs break that?

Nope.

We just got rid of one of the most stupid rules in the game - the fact that if you are playing alone your party doesn't have total control over the skills/builds it can choose.

And now people want more stupid rules?

People have been doing Mesmerway runs for ages in DoA.

But that isn't a problem because only a few people get to do it!

I can play with another friend (and I actually do all the time for 3+ years) and have 4 ritualists but that isn't a problem because only a few people play with others!

If merc heroes were free would we have these threads?

No.

Feel free to protest against them not being free just don't try to hide under some pretext of balance or imbalance or game breaking mechanic that simply isn't true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I changed my mind on mercenary heroes a while back - they provide an in-game advantage, however small, for money. While it's true that purchasing EotN also provides an in-game advantage for money, EotN also came with extra content. Mercenaries are similar to purchases that increases your damage output by 5%. An in-game advantage, however small, for money. It'd still be possible to complete the game without this advantage, but who'd agree with this ... ?

/signed.

I simply pair with a friend for free and extra fun.

Are you sure that isn't an in-game advantage for free and should be removed?

Why is it fair to pair up with another player or 7 but not to buy mercenary heroes to fill the roles?

If merc heroes were free would you still say they are a game advantage similar to a 5% damage boost?

This is very similar to the same arguments people used to tell 7 heroes would be so bad and imbalanced and whatnot.

reaper with no name · Apr 13, 2011, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

There we go again.

Merc heroes don't bend any rules of the game.

None.

The game is based on a party with 8 elements that have a primary and a secondary profession and can choose 8 skills, 1 of them elite and 3 of them can be PvE-only skills.

Do mercs break that?

Nope.

We just got rid of one of the most stupid rules in the game - the fact that if you are playing alone your party doesn't have total control over the skills/builds it can choose.

And now people want more stupid rules?

People have been doing Mesmerway runs for ages in DoA.

But that isn't a problem because only a few people get to do it!

I can play with another friend (and I actually do all the time for 3+ years) and have 4 ritualists but that isn't a problem because only a few people play with others!

If merc heroes were free would we have these threads?

No.

Feel free to protest against them not being free just don't try to hide under some pretext of balance or imbalance or game breaking mechanic that simply isn't true.

I simply pair with a friend for free and extra fun.

Are you sure that isn't an in-game advantage for free and should be removed?

Why is it fair to pair up with another player or 7 but not to buy mercenary heroes to fill the roles?

If merc heroes were free would you still say they are a game advantage similar to a 5% damage boost?

This is very similar to the same arguments people used to tell 7 heroes would be so bad and imbalanced and whatnot.

Mercs do break that rule, because they allow you to get that without having to use humans.

If mercs would be free it would not be a problem, because everyone would once again be on an even playing field. The fundamental issue is that people are able to pay real money to get an edge.

Improvavel · Apr 13, 2011, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Mercs do break that rule, because they allow you to get that without having to use humans.

If mercs would be free it would not be a problem, because everyone would once again be on an even playing field. The fundamental issue is that people are able to pay real money to get an edge.

Explain me that edge and what are the consequences of that edge.

FoxBat · Apr 13, 2011, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Then 6+ elementalists would be the problem.

Less of one, N/Es are passable in a way that N/Mes are not. Well unless they decide to "fix" eles by reworking their attribute, when all that is needed is adjusting mob armor.

Jeydra · Apr 14, 2011, 12:10 AM // 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I simply pair with a friend for free and extra fun.

Are you sure that isn't an in-game advantage for free and should be removed?

Why is it fair to pair up with another player or 7 but not to buy mercenary heroes to fill the roles?

If merc heroes were free would you still say they are a game advantage similar to a 5% damage boost?

This is very similar to the same arguments people used to tell 7 heroes would be so bad and imbalanced and whatnot.

You can pair with a friend, so can I.

But if I buy mercenary heroes, I can use 3 Mesmers, while you cannot.

How are the two even comparable?

Why aren't mercenary heroes a game advantage similar to a 5% damage boost?

Improvavel · Apr 14, 2011, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You can pair with a friend, so can I.

But if I buy mercenary heroes, I can use 3 Mesmers, while you cannot.

How are the two even comparable?

Why aren't mercenary heroes a game advantage similar to a 5% damage boost?

Can the 5% boost be obtained by any other means in game?

You buy mercenary heroes and use 3 mesmers. I pair with a person and use 2 of my mesmers heroes and my partner is a mesmer. I have 3 mesmers. I can even have 5 right there or 6 if I am a mesmer myself. And we will have 6 pve-only skills to boot.

Are you saying you have 5% damage boost over me?

Are you saying you have a 5% damage boost over a DoA mesmerway?

Obviously you don't have a 5% damage boost over those situations.

It is an indirect advantage while the 5% damage boost would be a direct advantage.

What you are paying for when you buy merc heroes is the privilege of having the ability to customize your party entirely on your own.

I think that is good. I think it isn't completely crazy of Anet charging for it (I just think the price options aren't good - the 1 slots are too expensive on a per slot basis and the 8 slot is too expensive for a single transaction).

A completely low move would have been for Anet to charge for the privilege of being able to use 7 heroes. They could have done that too and they didn't. After countless hours of quality content that I had playing guild wars, the price of merc heroes is extremely low and much more deserving than many full games out there.

Additionally I think part of this is circumstantial - mesmers and rits, 2 of the most powerful pve characters atm happen to only have 2 heroes (as do assassins but for some reason people don't seem to care about that). Considering that when most heroes introduced mesmers and rits were useless, that doesn't seem to be a plot from Anet. I wouldn't be surprised to see new heroes with WoC.

Jeydra · Apr 14, 2011, 11:37 AM // 11:37

Does your argument imply that removing heroes from the game does not change anything because it is always possible to partner with 7 other humans?

Gabs88 · Apr 14, 2011, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Another whining little thread.

So time to resort to the big bad black letters! IF THIS GAME DOESN'T EARN MONEY, IT WILL NOT RECEIVE ANY FURTHER DEVELOPMENT

So screw you all if you didn't buy mercs, buy them. Because the merc patch is what's paying for your free Mesmer \ Dervish updates in the first place. And how is it any more fair for you guys to get something free after we paid money for it then it is for you guys not to have it? EOTN PVE skills provides a far larger game advantage then Mercs ever will. Nightfall skills provided a huge overpowered boost compared to Factions skills or Tyrian skills... So what

Game moves on you either get on the bandwagon or stay behind

Swingline · Apr 14, 2011, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silvia Shadowback

Even without buying any mercenaries you can still complete everything in-game with ease, so if someone wants to pay money to make it even easier why not let them?

Its a steep drop when selling in game advantages. You may not care or think its a big deal now but in the future when GW2 has a cash shop that sells everything in the game you may look back and think this wasnt such a good idea. ANet seems to be getting more bold with their cash shop goods and that is what set many people off.

To the OP, imho nerf typeless damage in pve and pvp. Mesmers should deal chaos damage with spells that are affected by armor. Same goes for necro skills such as discord, switch discord to cold damage and its balanced with the other professions skills. The spells from monks and necros that deal holy/shadow damage are not really all that overpowered. Monk smiting skills are balanced in the fact they usually have long recharge times and have been nerfed in the past. Same goes for necro skills to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

Another whining little thread.

So time to resort to the big bad black letters! IF THIS GAME DOESN'T EARN MONEY, IT WILL NOT RECEIVE ANY FURTHER DEVELOPMENT

So screw you all if you didn't buy mercs, buy them. Because the merc patch is what's paying for your free Mesmer \ Dervish updates in the first place. And how is it any more fair for you guys to get something free after we paid money for it then it is for you guys not to have it? EOTN PVE skills provides a far larger game advantage then Mercs ever will. Nightfall skills provided a huge overpowered boost compared to Factions skills or Tyrian skills... So what

Game moves on you either get on the bandwagon or stay behind

It was the costumes/BMP/character slots/storage pans that paid for the dervish/mesmer updates, they still are and will continue to more than the merc packs ever could alone. Stumme stated the merc packs are only for people who want to play with all their characters at the same time and that it is purely cosmetic, therefore it should be.

Improvavel · Apr 14, 2011, 12:49 PM // 12:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Does your argument imply that removing heroes from the game does not change anything because it is always possible to partner with 7 other humans?

It is quite simple - if I had to partner with 7 humans I would simply stop playing guild wars.

Are you going to leave guild wars because if you want to have 4 mesmers while playing alone you need to pay $20?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

Its a steep drop when selling in game advantages. You may not care or think its a big deal now but in the future when GW2 has a cash shop that sells everything in the game you may look back and think this wasnt such a good idea. ANet seems to be getting more bold with their cash shop goods and that is what set many people off.

Will someone be pointing a gun to your head and force you to buy Guild Wars 2?

Guild Wars isn't Guild Wars 2 and Guild Wars 2 isn't Guild Wars. When you bought Guild Wars you didn't buy Guild Wars 2 or any rights on that game.

Cash shop games are already viable games so Anet will be able to have a game like that if they wish without you or me.

If Guild Wars 2 is a cash shop game I'm certainly not buying/playing it. Actually with the removal of heroes and the party requirement (unless I'm mistaken) I will probably not even be interested in GW2 in the first place.

Quote:

It was the costumes/BMP/character slots/storage pans that paid for the dervish/mesmer updates, they still are and will continue to more than the merc packs ever could alone. Stumme stated the merc packs are only for people who want to play with all their characters at the same time and that it is purely cosmetic, therefore it should be.

Because there is a rule that forbids me of having 5 ritualist characters.

Curiously my lvl 20 mules are all mesmers.

Jeydra · Apr 14, 2011, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

It is quite simple - if I had to partner with 7 humans I would simply stop playing guild wars.

Are you going to leave guild wars because if you want to have 4 mesmers while playing alone you need to pay $20?

Irrelevant. Read your own quote.

You buy mercenary heroes and use 3 mesmers. I pair with a person and use 2 of my mesmers heroes and my partner is a mesmer. I have 3 mesmers. I can even have 5 right there or 6 if I am a mesmer myself. And we will have 6 pve-only skills to boot.

You spend $20 buying heroes and can use 7 heroes. I pair with 7 humans, using the exact same professions as the heroes you use. And we will have 24 PvE only skills to boot.

You're not at a disadvantage by not buying those heroes. Why then are you quitting Guild Wars?

Xiaquin · Apr 14, 2011, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Fix the professions.

Advantage gone.

Improvavel · Apr 14, 2011, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Irrelevant. Read your own quote.

You buy mercenary heroes and use 3 mesmers. I pair with a person and use 2 of my mesmers heroes and my partner is a mesmer. I have 3 mesmers. I can even have 5 right there or 6 if I am a mesmer myself. And we will have 6 pve-only skills to boot.

You spend $20 buying heroes and can use 7 heroes. I pair with 7 humans, using the exact same professions as the heroes you use. And we will have 24 PvE only skills to boot.

You're not at a disadvantage by not buying those heroes. Why then are you quitting Guild Wars?

If the game had no option for playing with heroes I would leave since I have no interest in playing with 7 people.

If I hadn't been playing always with at least another person for the almost 5 years I'm playing GW I would have left GW because this game with h/h alone was frigging limited.

Merc heroes give you the option to overcome a much smaller limitation by paying a fee- people say it isn't content but the fact is that people that bought it get new content in their games.

And I'm still waiting for people to explain me how this advantage translate into game mechanics and what are the consequences of that edge.

Jeydra · Apr 15, 2011, 03:34 PM // 15:34

I have no interest playing with at least another person. Should I quit GW then?

Honestly if you can't tell where this in-game advantage is coming from, I'm not going to explain.

Perkunas · Apr 15, 2011, 06:39 PM // 18:39

I am still trying to understand how 7 or 8 of the same class gives anyone an advantage. Can someone show me a couple of team builds using all Necros or Eles or Mesmers that is supposed to be so much stronger than what is available in game now? In times past, these forums have had discussions of there being only a few of the hundreds of skills are of any real value. How can running multiples of the same build have that much of an advantage? Or maybe these multiples are relying totally on their secondary professions, which doesn't give that much of an implied advantage.

Please, draw me a picture, so that I can understand the big/slight advantages offered by Merc heroes. I still see Merc Heroes as a bunch of "Mini Me's".

Improvavel · Apr 15, 2011, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I have no interest playing with at least another person. Should I quit GW then?

Honestly if you can't tell where this in-game advantage is coming from, I'm not going to explain.

It is an advantage if you compare 1 person with 7 heroes vs 1 person with 7 heroes.

But what is the consequence of that advantage?

Someone can post a screen shot of completing an area in 8:00 while the other will take 8:30?

Is guild wars somehow revolving around people posting time records on forums?

And then compare 1 person + 7 heroes (mercs included) vs all the other options.

The fact is people can't explain how this advantage translate in game mechanics because in terms of game mechanics there is no advantage.

In the end, after created and added to a party a merc hero acts exactly like any other hero - it isn't some super item that is better than any other item or a random "+5% damage boost bought on the store".

The advantage is being able to add heroes of whatever professions but since when is adding whatever professions you want to party an advantage in GWs?

It is like saying someone has an advantage because they own all the campaigns - "but campaigns are different blah blah blah".

1 player +7 heroes (mercs included) isn't the most powerful party in the game.

Why should it be restricted for balance reasons if more powerful parties aren't?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perkunas

I am still trying to understand how 7 or 8 of the same class gives anyone an advantage. Can someone show me a couple of team builds using all Necros or Eles or Mesmers that is supposed to be so much stronger than what is available in game now? In times past, these forums have had discussions of there being only a few of the hundreds of skills are of any real value. How can running multiples of the same build have that much of an advantage? Or maybe these multiples are relying totally on their secondary professions, which doesn't give that much of an implied advantage.

Please, draw me a picture, so that I can understand the big/slight advantages offered by Merc heroes. I still see Merc Heroes as a bunch of "Mini Me's".

People are complaining because a 3rd rit and mesmers 3 to 5 might be more useful than the alternatives.

But all this is liable to change because:

a) More heroes will be added - probably 3rd rit, 3rd mesmer and 3rd assassin;

b) Anet said that melee AI will be improved - which means hero warrior, assassins and dervishes might become more useful and even surpass the usefulness of mesmer 4 and 5;

c) Anet announced that Paragons will be revamped, which again depending on the changes might make them more desirable.

In the end, players that bought the mercenary hero slots will always have more options, since they bought more options but that doesn't mean those options will necessarily be more powerful - a player with 7 merc heroes isn't the most powerful team atm.

Black Metal · Apr 15, 2011, 11:23 PM // 23:23

limiting and restricting otherwise fully functional and properly operating mechanics just cuz is kinda lame

so......./notsigned

reaper with no name · Apr 16, 2011, 08:47 AM // 08:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

Another whining little thread.

So time to resort to the big bad black letters! IF THIS GAME DOESN'T EARN MONEY, IT WILL NOT RECEIVE ANY FURTHER DEVELOPMENT

So screw you all if you didn't buy mercs, buy them. Because the merc patch is what's paying for your free Mesmer \ Dervish updates in the first place. And how is it any more fair for you guys to get something free after we paid money for it then it is for you guys not to have it? EOTN PVE skills provides a far larger game advantage then Mercs ever will. Nightfall skills provided a huge overpowered boost compared to Factions skills or Tyrian skills... So what

Game moves on you either get on the bandwagon or stay behind

selling costumes and other prestige stuff to earn money = good

selling mechanical advantages = bad

See the difference? Good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perkunas

I am still trying to understand how 7 or 8 of the same class gives anyone an advantage. Can someone show me a couple of team builds using all Necros or Eles or Mesmers that is supposed to be so much stronger than what is available in game now? In times past, these forums have had discussions of there being only a few of the hundreds of skills are of any real value. How can running multiples of the same build have that much of an advantage? Or maybe these multiples are relying totally on their secondary professions, which doesn't give that much of an implied advantage.

Please, draw me a picture, so that I can understand the big/slight advantages offered by Merc heroes. I still see Merc Heroes as a bunch of "Mini Me's".

I'm not currently aware of any specific examples. It's the fact that the lack of any profession limit makes such an imbalance possible that is the current problem, similar to how unexploded ordnance in a field is a problem even if no one has gotten killed by it yet.

However, let's say that (for the sake of argument), the best general hero build ends up not requiring mercs. Let's say it uses 2 mesmers and 1 minion master, and the minion master only barely got in (ie, the necromancer was only slightly better than another mesmer would have been).

Now, let's say this hero build is brought into an area where there is a lot of minion hate (like Consume Soul, for example). Suddenly, for this team build, 3 mesmers is better than 2 mesmers + 1 MM. Now, the guy with access to mercs has a mechanical advantage that the other guy can't get without spending real-life money.

Sure, it may just be for this one area (but then, there will probably be other areas causing similar issues for other parts of the party), but that's not the point. The fact that this imbalance can exist at all is downright heretical in a game where everyone is supposed to be on an equal playing field. It takes what could be considered the most important, most fundamental aspect of the game and throws it out the window. It is the gameplay equivalent to introducing time machines and grenades for anything other than an april fool's joke. If you played guild wars for the story/setting and suddenly machine guns were introduced, would you want to keep playing? Probably not, because it spits in the face of everything that makes the game what it is. Same thing here.

Improvavel · Apr 16, 2011, 09:06 AM // 09:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

I'm not currently aware of any specific examples. It's the fact that the lack of any profession limit makes such an imbalance possible that is the current problem, similar to how unexploded ordnance in a field is a problem even if no one has gotten killed by it yet.

However, let's say that (for the sake of argument), the best general hero build ends up not requiring mercs. Let's say it uses 2 mesmers and 1 minion master, and the minion master only barely got in (ie, the necromancer was only slightly better than another mesmer would have been).

Now, let's say this hero build is brought into an area where there is a lot of minion hate (like Consume Soul, for example). Suddenly, for this team build, 3 mesmers is better than 2 mesmers + 1 MM. Now, the guy with access to mercs has a mechanical advantage that the other guy can't get without spending real-life money.

Sure, it may just be for this one area (but then, there will probably be other areas causing similar issues for other parts of the party), but that's not the point. The fact that this imbalance can exist at all is downright heretical in a game where everyone is supposed to be on an equal playing field. It takes what could be considered the most important, most fundamental aspect of the game and throws it out the window. It is the gameplay equivalent to introducing time machines and grenades for anything other than an april fool's joke. If you played guild wars for the story/setting and suddenly machine guns were introduced, would you want to keep playing? Probably not, because it spits in the face of everything that makes the game what it is. Same thing here.

Since when does guild wars only and most important focus of balance is the solo player with heroes?

You said it is a mechanical advantage, but it isn't - it is a comfort advantage.

Additionally the whole concept of "the best general hero party" is a problem in itself - the game should be able to allow different styles of play to be equally effective. Anet already said that a melee AI improvement will be introduced.

See if the x party member of any given profession is a better choice than the 1st character of other profession, then you have a problem of balance between professions.